Transcript of Extended Interview with Colin Ireland
Thanks for checking out the extended edition of our Coffee Break interview with Colin Ireland, Resident Director-Emeritus at Arcadia University! We discuss his new book, available now from MIP and De Gruyter, The Gaelic Background of Old English Poetry Before Bede; talk about why the topic is important and where else related study could go; and end with the question MIP considers central to our mission: What does this text teach us about what it means to be human through the ages?
Transcript
MIP: Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us for another coffee break with MIP. Our guest today is Colin Ireland, Resident Director, Emeritus, of Arcadia University, and we'll be talking about his book, The Gaelic Background of Old English Poetry before Bede. Welcome Colin, and thank you so much for joining us.
Colin: Thank you very much, Becky.
MIP: So, to begin, can you just briefly tell us a little bit about the book?
Colin: Well, the basic idea, and the key word in the title as far as I'm concerned, is "background." This is something that has been overlooked for far too long. Many of the Anglo-Latin texts from the late seventh century and the early eighth century frequently mentioned the contacts with the Gaels, either in Britain itself or Anglo-Saxon students coming to study in various places in Ireland. That has never really been followed up by people who are interested in Old English literature and Anglo—Old English and Anglo-Latin literature. And I think it's just something that I've had plenty of exposure now, to the Gaelic literature and culture after years here in Ireland. And I think it's time that this picture were broadened for people who are interested in Old English.
MIP: So you kind of already alluded to this when you said it's been—the topic has been overlooked for far too long. Do you wanna expand a little bit on about why you think this specific topic or this approach is important?
Colin: Well, one of the things I think it shows—and certainly once one gains familiarity with the Gaelic literature and the Gaelic tradition in, by the way, in both Latin and in the vernacular, because Ireland particularly created a bilingual intellectual culture very early on; it's clearly in place by the seventh century, by the time we have the missions from Iona, for example, into Northumbria—so this clearly is part of that background. So when we look at, for instance, vernacular literature in Gaelic, it's much richer, much more extensive than what we have in Old English.
We have some marvelous pieces in old English—Beowulf, of course, being a primary example, Widsith, Deor—these are all intriguing, but sadly, Gaelic far exceeds what's there. And we—or at least in quantity, far exceeds what we have for Old English. And Old English—and I've said this before, and it sounds a bit demeaning—but in many ways Old English can nearly be described as a literature of translation. People who study Old English literature are typically finding the Latin sources for the various pieces that they have, whereas in Gaelic literature, in the vernacular, there's a very strong tendency for us to see secular literature, secular matters, traditional material. But it's absolutely clear with close readings that these are being written by a Christian people.
So the Christianity is there—and it's there from from our earliest written records—but there's still this deep tradition for the Gaels to talk about their native traditions in a way that we simply don't see for Old English. Because if we were to take it a step further, when we look at Beowulf, as important as it is and as good as it is—yes, it's written in Old English, yes, it's intended for people who live in Britain—in other words, for the Anglo-Saxon people. But all of the events take place on the Continent.
MIP: Yeah.
Colin: Whereas, when we look at early Gaelic literature, and as early as the seventh century, you know, the late seventh century, early eighth century, we have full texts already, but they're placed in identifiable places, typically in Ireland or in Northern Britain.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: So we have a whole different sense about what tradition and custom and lore means when you look at Gaelic literature as opposed to when you look at Old English literature.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: And I think that in many ways, you could almost say that Gaelic literature provides a context for appreciating vernacular literature in Old English.
MIP: Okay.
Colin: And not vice versa.
MIP: Mm-hmm. It reminds me a little bit of—it seems like there's a lot of similarities with Old Norse and Old Norse-Icelandic literature.
Colin: Yeah.
MIP: In some ways. And I've heard a lot about, you know, people looking for analogs of Old English literature in Old Norse, but I really haven't heard as much about looking to the Gaelic, so that's really interesting.
Colin: Yeah, well, actually surprisingly, a lot of people particularly who are looking at Beowulf have looked to Gaelic examples.
MIP: Hmm.
Colin: And I think it's quite legitimate for them to do that. And I'm glad you mentioned Old Norse because Old Norse literature has a lot of similarities, I think, with Gaelic literature and the types of literature that get written and the idea that you have, side by side, kind of native lore, right, along with people who are clearly writing this down as Christians.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: So they're conscious that they're looking back at their ancestors.
MIP: Yeah.
Colin: You're conscious of that when you look at Gaelic literature as well.
MIP: Yeah. That's really interesting. So, you know, you mentioned you have—you've by this point had a lot of background, a lot of exposure to the Gaelic material. You've been studying it for a long time, but was there—did you learn anything or did you kind of come across anything while you were working on the book that you maybe found surprising or unexpected even after all this study?
Colin: Yeah, I can't actually say that I surprised myself or found anything terribly unexpected. Most of it was there, needless to say. As I put the book together, I began to realize there are lots of things that I wish I knew more about and things that I could answer, and areas that I realized, these need to be explored in a much deeper sense.
MIP: Mm-hmm. So do you want to talk a little bit about some of those then? I think that's sort of leading to another question that we had, which was, you know, is there anything in the book or anything that you wish you could have included in the book that maybe you didn't have room for, or like you said, something you wanted to learn more about?
Colin: Yeah. Yeah. In fact, we can wrap those two questions together.
MIP: Yeah.
Colin: Because there would—I would, just off the top of my head, mention two very specific things, which is a signal, of course, that these are projects that I've already created for myself in my mind.
MIP: Yeah. (laughs)
Colin: But one of the things I tried to bring out in the book is that idea of, well—I'll simply use that word, "syncretism."
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: The idea of blend. I mean, these people had to consciously blend their native traditions with this new Christian dispensation.
MIP: Yeah.
Colin: And they also realized, of course, that these things didn't always blend neatly.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: And so they had to consider all of those questions. Uh, in the Gaelic situation, you have—we have texts that show a very conscious effort to do just that.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: Little legends that get evolved, etiological legends that evolved. And most of these—or at least, not most, but some—of these etiological legends evolved relatively early, by the eighth or ninth century. Looking back, trying to explain how it was that it could be accepted that we would tell these stories, say something like stories about Cú Chulainn.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: When we're Christian people and we realized that this guy was a pretty savage pagan. Yeah. So it's those—that argument, or that whole question of how these things came to be blended, are questions I'd love to investigate in a deeper way. And while it might not be quite possible, at least looking at it now, to say how it happened, what I can do is find plenty of texts that show it happening.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: Yeah. So that's one of the areas that I would definitely want to look into.
MIP: Great. So was there anything especially challenging or rewarding, interesting, productive about researching and writing this? Those are a lot of different avenues, I guess.
Colin: Yeah. (laughs)
MIP: So, you know, pick which one you would like to talk about.
Colin: Yeah. Well, the simple fact of the matter is, yes, I—as I say, it did focus my attention a lot more than I realized as I began writing the book. I had always had that sense that these things—that certain things needed to be said. There were certain observations I knew I had to make. For example, poets in Gaelic society are high-ranking socially, they're officially recognized in the law tracts. They were a, you know, an admired and appreciated professional class, and they also had to go through specific training. We don't have any evidence for that in Old English. It must have happened. It may have been in a far less formal way.
MIP: Right.
Colin: But this is one of those things where I would say that the Gaelic tradition gives us a context, or at least a possible context, for answering some of these questions in Old English. Why don't we have evidence of professional poets in Old English, whereas—or people who went through some sort of formal schooling or formal training? Because we definitely have it in Gaelic. So yeah, those are the kinds of things that, you know, again, if I had more time, I'd love to try to tease out.
MIP: Yeah. There are so many things, we wonder why we don't have evidence of "blank" in Old English. I work on bodily movement in literature and that's, you know, another one that sometimes I wish we had a little bit still surviving.
Colin: There you are. Let me just mention then a good example, because the famous hero Cú Chulainn in the Táin Bó Cúailnge goes through these—in stunning body, bodily, uh... what would you want to call them Contortions...
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: ...called ríastrad in Old Irish. I think you'd appreciate reading some of those.
MIP: So yeah, I will look into it. Okay. So. Before we finish up here, what kind of courses do you think would benefit from including this book on their reading list?
Colin: Ah well, you see, I'm biased and of course I would always, I would always say anybody doing a survey course of Old English should have a sense that there's a much larger context in which to view Old English and how it came about.
MIP: Mm-hmm.
Colin: So why not give certain chapters or at least bits and pieces from this to undergraduates doing a survey course? But then, naturally, I do try to go into a lot more depth for certain topics. So let's hand it to the graduates as well.
MIP: Yeah. All sounds good. So we like to end each of these interviews with the same question, which I hope is an interesting one, and will provoke some discussion. MIP publications employ innovative and interdisciplinary approaches to what it has meant to be human throughout the ages. What does this book teach us about what it has meant to be human in early medieval England or Ireland, or indeed maybe what it means to be human now?
Colin: Well, one of the things I would say is, as to what it teaches us about being human now, is, we live in an Anglophone world, and I think that gives us a sense sometimes that everything in the past must have derived directly from that same Anglophone tradition—or at least, what gave us Modern English, we can trace it straight back into Old English. But I think, among the things that this—that I'm trying to show, at least in this book, is that there's a much broader picture to look at, that the traditions that grew up in modern Britain that—or in Britain that became modern England, I should say—were not isolated from their immediate neighbors.
And there's a strong tendency for us in Old English to simply look to the Continent for examples. And I think part of that is encouraged by the fact that so much of what is preserved in Old English has a clear Latinate background to it. But I think there's—there's a lot to be learned from the Brittonic traditions—in other words, the ancestors to the Welsh, as well as the Gaelic tradition, the ancestors to the modern Scots and Irish—and so, in essence, what I would say is, even back in those, there's no pure tradition to go back to. It's—they're blended constantly as far back as we can go. They're a blend. That's one of the things I would say is important for us to take home with that.
MIP: Yeah. Great. That's wonderful. Thank you so much.
Colin: Thank you.
MIP: This was really enjoyable. Thank you. We'll give people information about how to buy the book in the comments below.
Colin: Great.
MIP: All of our books are currently 20% off, so that includes The Gaelic Background of Old English Poetry before Bede. And yeah, thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate it and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
Colin: Thanks, Becky. I appreciate it. A real pleasure.
MIP: Thanks.
The Gaelic Background of Old English Poetry Before Bede, By Colin A. Ireland
ISBN: 978-1-50152-028-0 (clothbound), 978-1-50151-387-9 (PDF), 978-1-50151-393-0 (EPUB), © 2022
Buy The Gaelic Background of Old English Poetry Before Bede at De Gruyter
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